Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Hi Diego,
Below are my comments on the Lb lifetime paper.
Cheers, Niels
Main comments ------------- 1) You should refer to the other tau_Lb paper by LHCb: PAPER-2013-065
2) Could you provide an LHCb average of tau_Lb/tau_B0, which other analyses could use?
3) L.126 You mention the pK- mass spectrum. It is useful to add the corresponding plot.
Minor comments -------------- L.9/10 You say 1/mb2 terms are 'tiny' and 1/mb3 terms are 'small'. Is it really so that O(1/mb2) < O(1/mb3) ?
L.14 'In 2003 one data average gave' -> 'In 2003 one ratio was'
L.16 'while some thought that' -> 'while others thought that'
L.20 Suggest to rephrase, 'data collected with ... luminosity' , because data is not collected with luminosity?
L.184: Figs.4 and 5., and Fig.6 is a bit far from L.184. Suggest to group Figs.4 and 5 together, and get Fig.6 closer.
L.229 Add title 'Acknowledgments'
Ref [16] Add journal: JINST 9 (2014) P01002 Ref [19] Replace by trigger paper
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
--
Hi
Please find below the answers from Sheldon about the /\b lifetime: http://cds.cern.ch/record/1645926
Cheers;
Diego
________________________________________ Dende: bfys-physics-bounces@nikhef.nl [bfys-physics-bounces@nikhef.nl] en nome de Niels Tuning [h71@nikhef.nl] Enviado: venres, 31 de xaneiro de 2014 11:30 Ata: Tjeerd Ketel CC: bfys-physics@nikhef.nl Asunto: Re: [Bfys-physics] Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!!
Hi Diego,
Below are my comments on the Lb lifetime paper.
Cheers, Niels
Main comments ------------- 1) You should refer to the other tau_Lb paper by LHCb: PAPER-2013-065
2) Could you provide an LHCb average of tau_Lb/tau_B0, which other analyses could use?
3) L.126 You mention the pK- mass spectrum. It is useful to add the corresponding plot.
Minor comments -------------- L.9/10 You say 1/mb2 terms are 'tiny' and 1/mb3 terms are 'small'. Is it really so that O(1/mb2) < O(1/mb3) ?
L.14 'In 2003 one data average gave' -> 'In 2003 one ratio was'
L.16 'while some thought that' -> 'while others thought that'
L.20 Suggest to rephrase, 'data collected with ... luminosity' , because data is not collected with luminosity?
L.184: Figs.4 and 5., and Fig.6 is a bit far from L.184. Suggest to group Figs.4 and 5 together, and get Fig.6 closer.
L.229 Add title 'Acknowledgments'
Ref [16] Add journal: JINST 9 (2014) P01002 Ref [19] Replace by trigger paper
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
-- _______________________________________________ Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
Hi Diego,
If you intend to reply, I would like to add a comment here, see below.
Cheers, Niels
Q: -Could you provide an LHCb average of tau_Lb/tau_B0, which other analyses could use?
A: This would essentially be the result in this paper, since our uncertainties are much smaller. However, there is an added complication on how to deal with the correlated systematic uncertainties in the two measurements, especially since I expect that mainly the same events were used. Even in principle, I don’t understand how to average these numbers.
The samples are not the same: PAPER-2013-065 (https://cds.cern.ch/record/1645857?ln=en) uses Lb->J/psi L(->p pi) decays, whereas you use Lb->J/psi pK decays.
If we would naively average the two results, PAPER-2013-065 tau_Lb/tau_B0 = 0.929 +- 0.0184 PAPER-2014-003 tau_Lb/tau_B0 = 0.974 +- 0.0072 and ignore correlated systematic errors, we find: tau_Lb/tau_B0 = 0.9680 +- 0.0067
It would be of added value to quote this number in your paper.
On Mon, 3 Feb 2014, Diego Martinez Santos wrote:
Hi
Please find below the answers from Sheldon about the /\b lifetime: http://cds.cern.ch/record/1645926
Cheers;
Diego
Dende: bfys-physics-bounces@nikhef.nl [bfys-physics-bounces@nikhef.nl] en nome de Niels Tuning [h71@nikhef.nl] Enviado: venres, 31 de xaneiro de 2014 11:30 Ata: Tjeerd Ketel CC: bfys-physics@nikhef.nl Asunto: Re: [Bfys-physics] Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!!
Hi Diego,
Below are my comments on the Lb lifetime paper.
Cheers, Niels
Main comments
You should refer to the other tau_Lb paper by LHCb: PAPER-2013-065
Could you provide an LHCb average of tau_Lb/tau_B0, which other
analyses could use?
- L.126 You mention the pK- mass spectrum. It is useful to add the
corresponding plot.
Minor comments
L.9/10 You say 1/mb2 terms are 'tiny' and 1/mb3 terms are 'small'. Is it really so that O(1/mb2) < O(1/mb3) ?
L.14 'In 2003 one data average gave' -> 'In 2003 one ratio was'
L.16 'while some thought that' -> 'while others thought that'
L.20 Suggest to rephrase, 'data collected with ... luminosity' , because data is not collected with luminosity?
L.184: Figs.4 and 5., and Fig.6 is a bit far from L.184. Suggest to group Figs.4 and 5 together, and get Fig.6 closer.
L.229 Add title 'Acknowledgments'
Ref [16] Add journal: JINST 9 (2014) P01002 Ref [19] Replace by trigger paper
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
-- _______________________________________________ Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
--
Dear all,
Diego and Maurizio introduced the two papers below this morning and they will collect the comments of us and upload them on CDS before their respective deadlines.
During the discussion of PAPER-2014-001 I found that I had actually read another paper PAPER-2013-067; Jeroen did the same.
Now I should apologize that in fact PAPER-2014-001 was NOT assigned to Nikhef, but that I copy-pasted the wrong email from CERN. I think everybody enjoyed the discussion of that paper and our comments will be usefull.
Nevertheless, we also need to give comments to PAPER-2013-067. I will collect those comments, send them around on Monday and upload them on Wednesday 5 February (its deadline).
Best regards, Tjeerd
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
Hi Wouter, Gerhard, Roel,
On paper 2013-067 I have the following question about weights in a likelihood fit (l.124). See: https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644422?ln=en
They use a global factor to correct (normalise) the weights: alpha = Sum(wi)/Sum(wi^2). They do this to make sure that the error estimates are correct. I know that there can be some caveats with this method, but I am actually wondering what would be a good reference. The paper from Yuehong http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0724v1.pdf is not a good reference, because he does not use this normalisation yet (he introduced this later in an internal note). In the paper he only remarks: "Apparently the errors obtained this way using the weighted likelihood function LW are underestimated, because the effect of background fluctuation is not properly accounted for. Reliable error estimates can be obtained from Monte Carlo simulation."
So what is a good reference to suggest to the authors? I am sure that many analyses will have this issue (e.g. B lifetime, DACP).
Cheers Jeroen
On 31 Jan, 2014, at 12:14 pm, Tjeerd Ketel tjeerd@nikhef.nl wrote:
Dear all,
Diego and Maurizio introduced the two papers below this morning and they will collect the comments of us and upload them on CDS before their respective deadlines.
During the discussion of PAPER-2014-001 I found that I had actually read another paper PAPER-2013-067; Jeroen did the same.
Now I should apologize that in fact PAPER-2014-001 was NOT assigned to Nikhef, but that I copy-pasted the wrong email from CERN. I think everybody enjoyed the discussion of that paper and our comments will be usefull.
Nevertheless, we also need to give comments to PAPER-2013-067. I will collect those comments, send them around on Monday and upload them on Wednesday 5 February (its deadline).
Best regards, Tjeerd
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
Take a look at the Bd -> phi K* draft. It contains a reference either to Eadie et al or the later version of the same book from James et. al. You can find the Eadie et al reference if you search indico for presentations by me and pick the one on weighted likelihoods.
Note that the Yuehong ‘alpha’ is an approximation of the formula given by Eadie et al, in that it assumes the derivatives of the likelihood wrt. the parameters to factor, and then drop out of the ratio…
— Gerhard
On Jan 31, 2014, at 13:18:55, Jeroen Van Tilburg jeroen.van.tilburg@cern.ch wrote:
Hi Wouter, Gerhard, Roel,
On paper 2013-067 I have the following question about weights in a likelihood fit (l.124). See: https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644422?ln=en
They use a global factor to correct (normalise) the weights: alpha = Sum(wi)/Sum(wi^2). They do this to make sure that the error estimates are correct. I know that there can be some caveats with this method, but I am actually wondering what would be a good reference. The paper from Yuehong http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0724v1.pdf is not a good reference, because he does not use this normalisation yet (he introduced this later in an internal note). In the paper he only remarks: "Apparently the errors obtained this way using the weighted likelihood function LW are underestimated, because the effect of background fluctuation is not properly accounted for. Reliable error estimates can be obtained from Monte Carlo simulation."
So what is a good reference to suggest to the authors? I am sure that many analyses will have this issue (e.g. B lifetime, DACP).
Cheers Jeroen
On 31 Jan, 2014, at 12:14 pm, Tjeerd Ketel tjeerd@nikhef.nl wrote:
Dear all,
Diego and Maurizio introduced the two papers below this morning and they will collect the comments of us and upload them on CDS before their respective deadlines.
During the discussion of PAPER-2014-001 I found that I had actually read another paper PAPER-2013-067; Jeroen did the same.
Now I should apologize that in fact PAPER-2014-001 was NOT assigned to Nikhef, but that I copy-pasted the wrong email from CERN. I think everybody enjoyed the discussion of that paper and our comments will be usefull.
Nevertheless, we also need to give comments to PAPER-2013-067. I will collect those comments, send them around on Monday and upload them on Wednesday 5 February (its deadline).
Best regards, Tjeerd
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
-- Gerhard
Hi Gerhard,
You mean your presentation in June 2012 ? https://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?contribId=1&resId=0&materia...
Anyway, no real reference to Yuehong’s alpha then?
Cheers Jeroen
On 31 Jan, 2014, at 13:30 pm, Gerhard Raven <gerhard.raven@nikhef.nlmailto:gerhard.raven@nikhef.nl> wrote:
Take a look at the Bd -> phi K* draft. It contains a reference either to Eadie et al or the later version of the same book from James et. al. You can find the Eadie et al reference if you search indico for presentations by me and pick the one on weighted likelihoods.
Note that the Yuehong ‘alpha’ is an approximation of the formula given by Eadie et al, in that it assumes the derivatives of the likelihood wrt. the parameters to factor, and then drop out of the ratio…
— Gerhard
On Jan 31, 2014, at 13:18:55, Jeroen Van Tilburg <jeroen.van.tilburg@cern.chmailto:jeroen.van.tilburg@cern.ch> wrote:
Hi Wouter, Gerhard, Roel,
On paper 2013-067 I have the following question about weights in a likelihood fit (l.124). See: https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644422?ln=en
They use a global factor to correct (normalise) the weights: alpha = Sum(wi)/Sum(wi^2). They do this to make sure that the error estimates are correct. I know that there can be some caveats with this method, but I am actually wondering what would be a good reference. The paper from Yuehong http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0724v1.pdf is not a good reference, because he does not use this normalisation yet (he introduced this later in an internal note). In the paper he only remarks: "Apparently the errors obtained this way using the weighted likelihood function LW are underestimated, because the effect of background fluctuation is not properly accounted for. Reliable error estimates can be obtained from Monte Carlo simulation."
So what is a good reference to suggest to the authors? I am sure that many analyses will have this issue (e.g. B lifetime, DACP).
Cheers Jeroen
On 31 Jan, 2014, at 12:14 pm, Tjeerd Ketel <tjeerd@nikhef.nlmailto:tjeerd@nikhef.nl> wrote:
Dear all,
Diego and Maurizio introduced the two papers below this morning and they will collect the comments of us and upload them on CDS before their respective deadlines.
During the discussion of PAPER-2014-001 I found that I had actually read another paper PAPER-2013-067; Jeroen did the same.
Now I should apologize that in fact PAPER-2014-001 was NOT assigned to Nikhef, but that I copy-pasted the wrong email from CERN. I think everybody enjoyed the discussion of that paper and our comments will be usefull.
Nevertheless, we also need to give comments to PAPER-2013-067. I will collect those comments, send them around on Monday and upload them on Wednesday 5 February (its deadline).
Best regards, Tjeerd
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
_______________________________________________ Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
_______________________________________________ Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nlmailto:Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
-- Gerhard
Dear Diego, I attached my comments to PAPER-2014-003. Best regards, Tjeerd
On Fri, 31 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear all,
Diego and Maurizio introduced the two papers below this morning and they will collect the comments of us and upload them on CDS before their respective deadlines.
During the discussion of PAPER-2014-001 I found that I had actually read another paper PAPER-2013-067; Jeroen did the same.
Now I should apologize that in fact PAPER-2014-001 was NOT assigned to Nikhef, but that I copy-pasted the wrong email from CERN. I think everybody enjoyed the discussion of that paper and our comments will be usefull.
Nevertheless, we also need to give comments to PAPER-2013-067. I will collect those comments, send them around on Monday and upload them on Wednesday 5 February (its deadline).
Best regards, Tjeerd
On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Tjeerd Ketel wrote:
Dear colleagues,
Bfys Meeting Friday 31 January at 9:30 in !!! N328 !!! and Vidyo
9:30 - 10:15 Introduction and discussion by Diego of PAPER-2014-003: Precision measurement of the $\Lambda_b^0/\overline{B}^0$ lifetime ratio https://cds.cern.ch/record/1643936
10:15 - 11:00 Introduction and discussion by Maurizio of PAPER-2014-001: Observation of photon polarization in $B^\pm\to K^\pm\pi^\mp\pi^\pm\gamma$ decays https://cds.cern.ch/record/1644210
We succeeded to get N328 and we can continue until 12:00, if needed.
The material can be found at http://agenda.nikhef.nl/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=2799 and will be protected by lhcb, etc.
Vidyo link in Nikhef Bfys Meeting (at Institutes->Nikhef of Friday 21 June 2013) https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=255991 protected by PIN 1328.
Best regards, Tjeerd
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
Bfys-physics mailing list Bfys-physics@nikhef.nl https://mailman.nikhef.nl/mailman/listinfo/bfys-physics
-
Diego Martinez Santos -
Gerhard Raven -
Jeroen Van Tilburg -
Niels Tuning -
Tjeerd Ketel