-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: Pigtail holder final specs
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 09:58:52 +0100
From: Oihan <Oihan.Elesgaray(a)ific.uv.es>
To: Tommi Mikkola <tmikkola(a)nikhef.nl>
Hi Tommi.
Please find attached the new drawings.
I have put the Bolhoff reference for the Helicoil. I was looking at them
and the best option is to go for a 6mm length even though the screw
length is 6.1mm. The minimum distance for a hole is 7.52mm so going for
a 7.5 could be problematic, also I think it is better to put the
helicoil plus version to avoid problems, the screwlock version says:
""HELICOIL® Plus Screwlock can only be used with screws of higher
property classes (8.8 and higher). Common lubricants according to the
manufacturers’ recommendations should be used for highly alloyed screws.""
I will not attend the itk week and most likely I will not connect to the
meetings. Next week is Fallas here in Valencia and we have vacations
from the 18th to the 20th^^.
Let me know if everything is correct in the drawing. Pepe wants to
upload to EDMS the final version of them.
Cheers,
Oihan
El 14/03/2024 a las 9:31, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>
> Hi Oihan,
>
> I thought so too for decimals. I would round them where we can.
> Otherwise you always get questions about it. I did leave the distance
> between the 'pillars' and the threads accurate as that comes from the
> connector and is important for functioning.
>
> You are right about helicoils. Please put in 2xD. I mixed up the
> dimension t2 which is the length when installed, and dimension W which
> is the length of the insert when free.
>
> I mean this 'lip' where the whole thing is 24mm wide, but the mounting
> places are only 23.41mm wide. It looks weird, but I do a faint memory
> of phone meeting and somebody saying it is nice to leave it for
> gluing. That lip is always down so it is a nice reference. Let's just
> leave it in.
>
> btw, are you coming to the ITK week at CERN?
>
> -Tommi
>
> On 3/13/2024 16:33, Oihan Elesgaray Susierra wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tommi.
>>
>> I have seen the changes and it can be done without any problem. I
>> think those numbers come from how the design should have been
>> designed. I think Guillem used a core+glenair pcb as a reference and
>> that is the reason for those weird decimals.
>>
>> I will apply those changes tomorrow and also the helicoil specs. If I
>> remember correctly, the helicoil length is 7.2mm so it should be ok
>> since the total bore length is 8.2mm.
>>
>> What is the lip you mention? Since I did not design this part, I have
>> no idea why it was designed that way. All I know is that we had to
>> change the height of the abutments and modify the holes to put in
>> inserts.
>>
>> I will send you the modified files tomorrow.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Oihan
>>
>> El 13/03/2024 a las 16:16, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>>>
>>> Hi Oihan,
>>>
>>> I talked with instrumentmakers and we realised we have similar
>>> clamps 3d printed and it works well. The radius on the bottom is
>>> really printed as a step as the FDM printer does not have enough
>>> resolution, but it still works well. Pictures in the link below.
>>>
>>> I attached last comments for the design. Basically we can round up
>>> some numbers so that the numbers are more even. There is also this
>>> funny little lip that I did not understand at first, but I have a
>>> faint memory of a meeting where we kept is because that lip is
>>> always pointing down (and gives you an easy way to orient the holders).
>>>
>>> Please write in the full type of the insert. If I checked the
>>> catalogue right we cna only use the M3x1D inserts. For other inserts
>>> the length will be too much for low pig tail holders.
>>>
>>> Let me know what you think of the changes.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Tommi
>>>
>>> On 3/11/2024 10:57, Oihan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tommi.
>>>>
>>>> Yes they are captive. Here a picture:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also I have measure the scew
>>>>
>>>> There should be about 0.3mm tolerance (in case we assume 2.5 for
>>>> the threaded hole) between the centers (small diameter of the screw
>>>> and glenair hole). We can go for 0.1 also for the hole center
>>>> tolerances so in this way in the worst case the center of both
>>>> holes will be between the 0.15mm radius of movement.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible to get this 0.1 tolerance by printing peek/ultem? I
>>>> am not sure if we go for 0.2 tolerance, if we may encounter some
>>>> problems in the future.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Oihan
>>>>
>>>> El 08/03/2024 a las 16:35, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was quite confused why is there a thread there. But I guess the
>>>>> M3 screws are captive screws? So the top of the screw thread is
>>>>> machined away. Then the questions is the diameter of the captive
>>>>> part of the screw. Sorry I did not realise earlier. But I think it
>>>>> will ok, the screw should be able to move a tenth or two in the
>>>>> hole. That means to me that we can loosen the tolerance a little
>>>>> bit. Do you think so?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2024 11:42, Oihan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tommi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I measured the holes as best I could on a prototype petal we had
>>>>>> with an eos and a glenair connector, I used a caliper and these
>>>>>> are the measures:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Measure nº4 was difficult to get with the caliper and I decided
>>>>>> to drop it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The holes are threaded.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we need more precision I need to move that prototype petal
>>>>>> outside of the clean room and use a mitutoyo machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oihan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> El 08/03/2024 a las 9:00, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Oihan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, the diameter of that hole. It would be good to know, if
>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Tommi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2024 8:09, Oihan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Tommi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just to be sure, you want to check this hole:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We have a glenair in our petal box and in the PPA. The problem
>>>>>>>> is that it has the screws mounted and it would be difficult to
>>>>>>>> measure the hole. Maybe Pepe has one without the screws. I'll
>>>>>>>> ask him and in case we don't have one, we'll figure out
>>>>>>>> something to measure that hole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oihan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> El 07/03/2024 a las 21:24, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah that is a classic issue. You can never trust threaded
>>>>>>>>> hole dimensions from CAD files. CATIA & NX draw out the
>>>>>>>>> pre-drill diameter (i.e. diameter 2.5 before tapping M3) and
>>>>>>>>> inventor or solidworks models the nominal diameter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the hole was made for a M2.5 insert it might fit in that
>>>>>>>>> depth, or the previous person didn't realise that for a blind
>>>>>>>>> hole you cannot thread all the way. It doesn\t matter. In the
>>>>>>>>> end we have to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will check the new design with the instrument makers and see
>>>>>>>>> what kind of feedback they have.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Btw do you have any of these glenair connectors lying around?
>>>>>>>>> Could you check the diameter of the free hole for M3 screws?
>>>>>>>>> That will tell us what kind of accuracy we need on the holes.
>>>>>>>>> Is -+0.05 necessary and do we really need machining
>>>>>>>>> tolerances. I suspect 3D print would be ok and simpler to
>>>>>>>>> make. As it is now I do not see a way to machine it with one
>>>>>>>>> fixation. This means they have to remove it from machine and
>>>>>>>>> align and mount it again. It always means relatively a much
>>>>>>>>> more expensive part.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /Tommi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2024 15:26, Oihan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tommi.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I checked the cad and the glenair drawing. On the drawing it
>>>>>>>>>> says 3M but the hole in the cad file is 2.5. That is the
>>>>>>>>>> reason I thought it should be 2.5M however it looks like the
>>>>>>>>>> 2.5 is because that hole is also threaded. I have changed the
>>>>>>>>>> hole size to 3.2 to fit a 3M helicoil.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, you are right about the helicoil length. We need a
>>>>>>>>>> through hole to fit that helicoil (7.2mm). I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>> reason why the depth was 6.25 mm (it was the previous person
>>>>>>>>>> in my position who designed it) however I think there is no
>>>>>>>>>> problem if we drill through holes. The length of the helicoil
>>>>>>>>>> will be less than the height of the part and there will be no
>>>>>>>>>> physical contact between the helicoil and the disk.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please find the new updated steps with those changes and also
>>>>>>>>>> the drawings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> About printing vs machining maybe is better to try the
>>>>>>>>>> cheaper version first?. If you need the CADs with threads,
>>>>>>>>>> please let me know and I will prepare them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oihan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> El 07/03/2024 a las 14:40, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Oihan,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Few questions:
>>>>>>>>>>> - You mention using M2.5 but the Glenair connector uses M3
>>>>>>>>>>> screws according to the drawing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - Is the hole deep enough now? I calculated from print that
>>>>>>>>>>> the screw extrudes in by 6.1mm or so, and the hole is 6.25
>>>>>>>>>>> deep. Taking into account murphys law you will run into
>>>>>>>>>>> problems with the depth.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - What is the helicoil length you want to use? Please check
>>>>>>>>>>> the t_3 value to make sure helicoil thread is deep enough
>>>>>>>>>>> for insert, and deep enough for the screw(the thread cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> go all the way to the bottom of the hole, unless
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - can we make a through hole tapped all the way?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That was a quick check of the screws. I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>> discuss machining vs. 3d printing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -Tommi
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2024 7:56, Oihan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tommi.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, no problem. I also added the glenair drawing in
>>>>>>>>>>>> case you need it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I put tolerances thinking about machining the parts. If the
>>>>>>>>>>>> plan is to print them, the tolerances should be hard to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> so maybe we can ignore them and see what result we get with
>>>>>>>>>>>> printing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oihan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> El 06/03/2024 a las 16:48, Tommi Mikkola escribió:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Oihan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could you export the drawings as PDF? It would be a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier for control. DWG import is always difficult with NX
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the function is from pre-internet times.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3D I can import directly as step.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Tommi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/5/2024 13:31, Oihan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tommi.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I attach the two drawings and by the way, the files used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the drawings. I have modified the hole to put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> helicoils. I also attach the helicoil catalog for more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If we decide for inserts we can go back to the previous hole.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, the size of the wall in case of putting an insert is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.68mm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oihan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> El 01/03/2024 a las 14:52, Oihan escribió:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tommi, Marcel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been looking at the cad model of the pigtail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> holders to find out what the critical dimensions should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be. Right now I think we should put strict tolerances on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the height, the distance between holes, hole diameters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the distance between the pillars.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However I see that the hole diameter is 4.1mm so it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like we decided to put an insert there, however I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am looking at the option of putting helicoils and if we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want M2.5 helicoils we only need a 2.6mm hole (colunm B):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have found that Boelhoff has different options for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> helicoils. Most are stainless steel (different alloys)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but they have special Inconel ones (NiCr 15 Fe 7 TiAl )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that seem to be used in the aircraft industry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are we going to put in inserts or helicoils? After
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changing the glenair screws for grounding maybe we have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more freedom to choose?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oihan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-46980 Paterna, España
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-46980 Paterna, España
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tommi Mikkola
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Mechanical Engineer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
>>>>>>>>>>>>> M: +31646812239
>>>>>>>>>>>>> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>>>>>>>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>>>>>>>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 | E-46980
>>>>>>>>>>>> Paterna, España
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tommi Mikkola
>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Mechanical Engineer
>>>>>>>>>>> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
>>>>>>>>>>> M: +31646812239
>>>>>>>>>>> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>>>>>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>>>>>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 | E-46980
>>>>>>>>>> Paterna, España
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tommi Mikkola
>>>>>>>>> Lead Mechanical Engineer
>>>>>>>>> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
>>>>>>>>> M: +31646812239
>>>>>>>>> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>>>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>>>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 | E-46980
>>>>>>>> Paterna, España
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tommi Mikkola
>>>>>>> Lead Mechanical Engineer
>>>>>>> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
>>>>>>> M: +31646812239
>>>>>>> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 | E-46980
>>>>>> Paterna, España
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Tommi Mikkola
>>>>> Lead Mechanical Engineer
>>>>> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
>>>>> M: +31646812239
>>>>> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
>>>>
>>>> IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
>>>> Telf: +34 963543506
>>>> Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 | E-46980 Paterna,
>>>> España
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Tommi Mikkola
>>> Lead Mechanical Engineer
>>> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
>>> M: +31646812239
>>> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Tommi Mikkola
> Lead Mechanical Engineer
> Nikhef - National Institute for Subatomic Physics
> M: +31646812239
> E:tmikkola@nikhef.nl
--
Oihan Elesgaray Susierra
IFIC - Instituto de Física Corpuscular
Telf: +34 963543506
Parque Científico, C/Catedrático José Beltrán, 2 | E-46980 Paterna, España
